Amid the messy separation process between Raymond MD and Chairman Gautam Singhania and his wife, Nawaz Modi Singhania, former chief of the company and Gautam Singhania’s father, Vijaypat Singhania, has opened up about the current situation. He looked back at his relationship with his son as well as his daughter-in-law, and lamented giving away his assets to his son in this exclusive interview with Business Today.
Edited excerpts:
Q: I must say we are meeting in rather stressful times, given the developments over the last few days. From your perspective, how do you see these developments?
That's a very difficult question. One hears of such incidents quite frequently. But I hadn't hoped I'd have to see this in my own family. Difficult to describe what one goes through when you see your own family going through this kind of stress. I can only pray to God he helps to solve these issues.
Q: You have yourself also undergone stressful times with your son Gautam. The book release itself, your second book, there was a lot of controversy around that. How do you see what transpired then? And do you see that as a kind of pattern which is playing out?
It's rather embarrassing for me to comment on my own actions. But, as far as I know, what I have written is absolutely true. Nobody can challenge any of the contents of my book. The language of my book is very elementary English language. There are no hidden words. There are no hidden meanings. It's a very simple folding of the heart. Who was it addressed to? Maybe, to many parents like me, asking them to think very carefully before they give away everything to their children. By all means, give what you want to. I'm not telling you "don't give". I'm only saying, give it after you're gone, after your death. Don't give it in your lifetime because you may have to pay a very heavy price.
Q: So in your book, you called it perhaps the greatest mistake of your life in terms of what transpired in terms of you having to give away and that is why you probably say that parents should take a lesson out of that. Coming to the recent developments, you have clearly chosen to stand beside Nawaz Modi Singhania and she's, of course, very close to you and you've stood like a pillar of support. How do you see what will be the next course of action from here, in what is transpiring between your son and his wife?
It is not my business to interfere in what two grown up people are likely to go through. I offered to help, but Nawaz said, "No Papa, we will handle it ourselves". I respect that. So, I don't want to interfere where I'm not wanted. It is better, let them handle it. She also comes from a very famous and honourable legal family. Her father is 93 years old, very senior advocate and solicitor. She is herself an advocate, though she was never practicing. So, if she ever needs me or needs my advice, she is most welcome to come to me. I'll give her the best I can. But if she wants to do it herself, I'm not going to interfere. I think they have a right to live their life the way they want. All children should have that right.
Q: If she comes to you saying we have exhausted our options in terms of trying to get into an amicable settlement, would you then be open to speaking to your son about what is going on?
My first answer would be yes, I'd be open to meeting him. My second answer is that meeting him has no meaning because he won't listen to me. And if I say something which he doesn't like, he may scream at me, he may abuse me. He does all these kinds of things. So, I would probably try to keep away as much as I can.
Also read: BT Exclusive: 'Gautam Singhania would be happy to see me on the road,' says father of Raymond CMD
Q: But of course you will be, you know, giving your moral support to your daughter-in-law as you have said very clearly.
I will give my support to my daughter-in-law, not to my son.
Q: Coming to your son, and the earliest skirmishes and problems he has had with you and the current problems, how would you look at him from a father's lens? Do you think he is prone to these fits of rage? Or how do you describe this? Because at the business end, the company is fairly all right. And, you know, how would you look at his personal nature? Because this seems to be a recurring theme in the family.
I am not a psychoanalyst, it would be unfair to expect me to analyse his behaviour. Maybe it was always there. But in the earlier years, I think he kept it closely held and once he got the power of money, which I stupidly gave him everything, it all came out. Maybe it was always a part of him. When I look back, I can see lots of instances. I see bits and pieces of this over all of his personality, his character. It's full of all of it. And that's not what I am used to. I also had a lot of money at one time and power and authority. I don't think it ever went to my head by God's grace. If it has gone to his head, maybe he's one of those. And there are many in this world who allow it to go to their head. Money is power. Power is ego. Ego is arrogance. Simple as that.
Q: At the core of it, it is the Singhania family, the Singhania name, which is a storied name in Indian business. It is also a name associated with a company like Raymond, which is itself a well-known brand. Do you think all these developments eventually will kind of sully the name of the brand itself?
I am not so sure. Singhania family itself has become a very small family. Most of my senior cousins and brothers are all gone. Singhania name, at one time in the early forties, was bigger than the middle name. But then we became very much smaller. And new names came in, this is the ever changing position. I think today, my name, my family name, my stature will depend on what I do, not what somebody else does. I think they will have to face their own future by what they do. You are going to judge people by what you know of them, not of their family, so it's a very difficult question to answer. But I think we would all have to make our own name.
Q: Raymond is a listed company. It has public shareholders. Do you think this whole confusion rattles shareholders?
In my opinion, Raymond has a very large number of mature, logical shareholders. They can think for themselves. If they see something bad, they react quickly. So, I'm sure in this case also, it will depend on how they see the situation, not how I see this. So, Raymond's name will ultimately be dependent on how a larger number of shareholders, bankers, buyers, sellers – there's a whole lot of people involved – will see the situation. There are two things in it. One is how they see the issue itself and two, how it will affect Raymond's performance – they are not necessarily the same. So, I think it's a very difficult question to answer whether it will affect the Raymond name. We took a long time in building the Raymond name. It was a very small company making blankets when we bought Raymond in the early 40s. I took over, it had just started making suitings. Today, it has become a world name. And now many of the things in Raymond, Gautam is selling off. He's breaking up, Raymond. It breaks my heart. But I don't interfere. I don't tell him what he should do. He has to live. I have lived my life. I have maybe 2-3 years left. He has many more, so he must make his own call.
Q: Any conflict of this nature at the promoter family level will impact shareholders. That's the question I wanted to ask, because that will erode shareholder confidence. No matter how the company is being run, we have seen these cases.
Even today, when I am nobody in Raymond, shareholders, bankers do call me and talk to me. I said, why are you calling me? I'm nobody now. They said no and we respect you and what you have done. So, because if the Raymond name has to go down, it will have to go down without me. If it has to go up, it will go up without me. So, they're less and less related to each other.
Q: Nawaz Singhania has also talked about 75per cent shareholding of the wealth being distributed between her and their two daughters in the interest of protecting your granddaughters. How do you see that? Do you see that as a sort of legitimate way in which your daughter in law and the daughters can be protected?
Under the Hindu Marriage Act, as I know, I'm not a lawyer, 50 per cent of the husband's holding automatically goes to the wife in a separation. And I would have said, she may not need to fight for it. A very simple lawyer can get her that under the Hindu Marriage Act. Why is she fighting for 75 per cent? Gautam is never going to give in because his motto is buy everybody and buy everything. And buy buy buy. That's what he did with me. I didn't have that kind of money left to fight him. He bought everything. He'll buy everything. By fighting like this, I don't think she'll get much. Unless she has, maybe, a person like Harish Salve, Mukul Rohatgi or Kapil Sibal. There are some big shots in the field.
Of course, Harish has become Queen's Counsel now and he's highly respected. But he charges, I think, almost a crore of rupees for a meeting. So, I don't think she can pay that. But if she can hire a good lawyer, I think there's a good chance that she can get at least what is covered under the Hindu Act. What I don't know is whether being a Parsi – is she covered by the Hindu Marriage Act? I haven't checked with anybody. It's none of my business, but I'm sure she would have checked. Her dad will advise her. He's a very respected person. I respect him very highly. She has a brother, PC Modi. I don't know. I've never met him. He's a respected lawyer, he will give her good advice. She said he's the only person she trusts, so she'll go to him. I said good luck. I'm sure he'll give her good advice. I am not qualified to predict what the courts will do. In this country, courts do all things, which we don't know. And he's (Gautam) a guy who will buy everybody, so I don't think even the highest courts of this land will be able to resist his tempting offers. Whether he's good or bad or right or wrong, they are unimportant things. In these conditions, it's very difficult to predict what will happen in a legal case.
Q: Do you see this heading to the courts?
I don't know, really. Honestly, I don't know unless she has advised otherwise. Maybe it will go the legal way.
Q: There are mediators who are also trying to help. There are family friends, etcetera, you must be knowing a lot of people who, in the interest of the family, could help.
Gautam won't listen to anybody. He will do what he wants. He's not the kind who will mediate or get mediated. He'll do exactly what he wants. And if the law doesn't permit it, buy the law. Everybody tries to buy the law. He buys it successfully because if somebody needs Re 1, he will give five and people are not going to be able to resist that. I don't know many people who can.
Q: At the heart of it, do you see now this becoming a battle for succession? Because ultimately it is about, you know, Gautam Singhania and the family. And it is a succession issue. So, eventually it will be a succession battle.
That person will control who he wants it to control, nobody else will get. But I think that in time to come, if he loses this battle, which is most unlikely, the company will go to somebody else. It has happened in many families. I don't have much love left because I'm gone already. I am only sitting here for the time being. He has thrown me out of my own house. What can I say? He is living alone in the 36th floor of a building. There is no care, consideration for his parents, for his nephews who were living there, and threw everybody out. Because he can buy everybody.
Q: But it must be paining you very much as a patriarch, as a family member and as a father. You have been a pillar of restraint, but how do you see this? Is it not very painful, particularly with this latest thing.
I have never been through this in my life, in my 85 years of life, and in the next 2-3 years. I just have to accept what I'm going through. What's the big deal? I can keep on shouting, keep on complaining, keep on burning my heart. Where does that get me? The best is to keep out and live your life whatever little is left, which has no meaning.
Q: You have known so many people in the industry and in the business environment, have people started calling you?
I have been out of business for a long time, and therefore I've also lost a lot of my business friends. So, now very few people call me. No businessman calls me. I'm a has-been. There comes a time your life grows, stabilises, and then gone. It's a life cycle. You have to live it. You can't change you. I used to teach that as a professor - the life cycle.
Q: If you were to be given this wish to decide that, what would you want? How do you want this whole mess to be resolved?
I would say I hope it gets resolved where nobody gets hurt, but that is impossible.
Q: You also said that you don't see Gautam Singhania losing this battle, whichever way he wants to. But if he loses, then it becomes a big problem for Singhania and the daughters. I mean, what do you see as the outcome?
In my opinion, it's not fair to venture into the ifs and buts of the future. When the ifs and buts happen, they are capable of taking care of themselves, who am I to take care of?
Q: But your doors and your lines are open for both, your daughter-in-law and Gautam Singhania or only for your daughter in law if she seeks your advice?
For my side, I welcome Nawaz anytime she wants to come. My wife welcomes Gautam whenever he wants to come. I don't like it, but I don't stop it.
Q: Does he come and see her?
I think he does, but she doesn't tell me everything. I keep out.
Q: But you haven't spoken to him in a long while.
He was here yesterday. He didn't even get up and turn around to see me. He's become a very arrogant person.
Q: And how do you spend your time now?
I have no business. He had agreed to give me some parts of the company. But of course, for him to back out is a two-second deal, he backed out. So I have nothing else. I gave him everything. By mistake I was left with some money on which I'm surviving today. Otherwise I would have been on the road. He'd be happy to see me on the road. I'm sure of that. If he can throw his wife out like this, throw his father out like this, I don't know what he is.